Thursday, October 7, 2004

The Dialogues of Plato and Pam continued

The first part of The Dialogues of Plato and Pam can be found in the previous entry.

PAM: Let’s go back to the “etiquette” of sleeping over. If you go to someone’s place and say it’s eight o’clock and you guys are making love before the news in on.


PLATO: What is this the Jay Leno rule here?

You see Jay Leno and you get to stay? If you don’t, you don’t?


PAM: Okay, fine, all right. [Whatever.] My point being, if it’s earlier in the evening, I can understand someone asking -- would you like to stay overnight, because that implies that you’ll be making love again and it’s always nicer in the bedroom.  But if you get to her place late, after a date and you make love in her bed, go to sleep, then get up and leave -- that seems kind of cold.


PLATO: -- to you.


PAM: If you’re following the etiquette of leaving, then the guest could say would you like me stay or would you be more comfortable if I left? Because I think there’s an expectation of staying if you’re having sex after an evening together?


PLATO: Again this is about what you think and how you think it should be.




PLATO: The whole notion of etiquette -- there is a certain common understanding and a certain common expectation and a certain customary way to act. That’s what’s at the base of etiquette. 


PAM: Let me just say again [deaf boy] that getting up after making love with someone falling asleep, then leaving at 2:00 o’clock in the morning is rude. If you’re talking etiquette, that’s rude. 


PLATO: I can give you two words – to you.


PAM:  Apparently.


PLATO: Are women incapable of speech?  They couldn’t say, why don’t you stay, it would be nice if you stayed? [PAM:  Actually I said that to you, Mr. I’ve-Got-To-Have-an-Invitation. You still left.]


PAM: Because I also know women whosay why don’t you stay and the guys don’t stay.

[PAM: Remember all those times?]


PLATO: You’re trying to have it both ways.

[PAM:  I’m trying to figure out why you say one thing and do another.]


PAM: What if you stay once; does she have to ask you every time after that?


PLATO: I don’t know.  I think it’s up to every individual couple.  You’re asking about hard and fast rules for everybody and I don’t think there are hard and fast rules.

[PAM: Along with the Jay Leno rule, we could have the fake orgasm rule – if she has to fake it, buh- bye].

But I also think it’s as wrong to invite yourself over – at some point someone should ask. Either the guy who wants to stay if he wants to stay or the woman who wants him to stay There needs to be communication. 


PAM: I like the guys who communicate without really communicating. Her:  Won’t you stay? Him:  I can’t.  Her: You can’t?  Him:  I would give anything in the world to stay, but I just can’t. [PAM:  Him:  I refuse to stay on the grounds that it will be used against me.]


PLATO: Which is worse, ask and be rejected or climb out of bed at two in the morning, which you keep telling me is so rude. [PAM: Which is worse, adult or infant circumcision? Public Telephone germs or toilet seats? Not eating or eating then puking? Diarrhea or constipation?]


PAM: What do you say to people when you want them to leave?


PLATO: You don’t invite them to stay. 


PAM:  You don’t say anything?


PLATO:  No, I don’t want them to feel bad.

[PAM:  I remember our first time together. Before we even started you said, “You can’t stay, do you understand, you have to leave.”  I got the feeling there was another shift coming in.]


PAM: That’s not my experience with you.


PLATO:  Is this about us?


PAM: More than you’ll ever know.

[PAM:  This conversation ticked off Plato so much that we haven’t really spoken since he read the transcript . He also refused to add his post transcription comments. He thought there was too much male bashing. Actually HE was the only male being bashed. And the problem with that is?]



[PAM emailed a recent college graduate for his take on this etiquette thing.  PABLO -- not his real name -- is a former college football player, a member of Phi Beta Kappa.]


PAM:  What is the etiquette for sleeping over after sex all evening?


PABLO:  To love is an all–encompassing event that includes the morning -- not just for more sex -- but also for the chance to really see and feel the beauty that lies within.


[PAM:  What he said.]




belfastcowboy75 said...

I'd tend to agree with Pam, but these days, I'm up twice a night to whiz, I snore  if I've had a drink, and I'm flatulent in the morning. Pam would be dragging me to the door and kicking me down the stairwell.

musenla said...

Ahh, the etiquette of sleeping over.  I know this opinion is a cop out, but it depends.  Generally, I would agree that the one who owns the home should extend an invitation because it would be presumptuous of the guest to assume he/she is welcome.  I mean what if he/she isn't?  It would be devastating to discover that after one assumed that he/she is.